There are many who believe in prayer to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and even Mary.  This discussion focuses on prayer directed to Jesus.  I suggest you first read, "Prayer Addressed to Jesus" before studying this exchange.  The following exchange was prompted when Steven Hughs took the position that regular prayer directed to Jesus is necessary and that one must pray directly to Jesus during the Lord's Supper or Jesus is only an "abstract figure."  Steven stated that where he preachers, they pray to Jesus in the auditorium and expect others to do the same. 

Don Martin to the list:

As you know by now, I enjoy a good clean discussion that has the design and intent of arriving at the truth. One controversy that is cyclical in the Lord's church is the matter of prayer addressed to Jesus. Steven Hughs is of the decided thinking that prayer to Jesus is not only taught but is one occasion "necessary."

Hear Steven:

I had come to the conclusion of the propriety and sometimes the necessity of "praying to Jesus." When I say "the necessity" of praying to Jesus I have reference to the fact that one may wound the conscience of a weak brother and in so doing, my "sin against Christ" according to the inspired apostle Paul's statement in (1 Corinthians 8:12). My question to Bryan and others who oppose "talking, praying, or singing to Christ" is, when you "sin against Christ" how do you receive His forgiveness? Must one ask the Father to forgive one of sinning against His Son? Or, must one repent and ask Christ Himself to forgive him? I believe the latter to be the proper answer. If I sin against a brother in Christ I must repent and ask His forgiveness as well as the Father's. It isn't sufficient to ask God to forgive me until and unless I have made things right with my brother (See Matthew 5:23-24; 1 Peter 3:12).

Don comments:

I have noticed lately that many who hold, teach, and practice prayer to Jesus also are saying that prayer to the Holy Spirit may also be practiced. (Consider Steven's below answer to this question.)

I am just wondering about different thinking that the usually mentioned examples of Acts 7, 2 Cor. 12, etc. constitute prayer to Jesus, even making prayer to Jesus necessary. I do know that many Christians have never prayed to Jesus; hence, are they in sin?

Some do not regularly pray to Jesus because of the following reasons:

(1). The Christian is clearly taught to pray to the Father (Matt. 6: 15, see exemplified in Ephesians 3: 14-21).

(2). Jesus' role is that of advocate, rather than the one to whom prayer is regularly offered (I Jn. 2: 1).

(3). A number (numbers do not really matter) believe the example of Stephen and Paul (Acts 7; 2 Cor. 12), etc. do not really constitute prayer, as we perceive prayer and in our circumstances.

Any thoughts regarding the subject of prayer to Jesus being a practice that is necessary and clearly taught in the scriptures?

Steven wrote in answer to my below question:

(1). Can one sin against the Holy Spirit and, in the event that one can, must one also pray to the Holy Spirit? "Answer: No!"

A. Also, Steven, if you believe one can sin against the Holy Spirit, do you believe it is "NECESSARY" to pray directly to the Holy Spirit as you believe it is "NECESSARY" to pray directly to Jesus? Steven answered, "No!"

Steven further answered: "If there was a case in Scripture where disciples did pray to the Holy Spirit I would accept that and teach that we may. In the absence of such my answer is No!"

Don Martin to the list:

Ted Jarvis posed the following good question to the list:

Is it proper or improper to:
- Pray to the Holy Spirit
- Praise and worship the Holy Spirit
- Express love towards the Holy Spirit
- Express gratitude to the Spirit (this differs from Praise)

Don comments:

A segment of the denominational world commonly sings and prays to the Holy Spirit. They act as if this were found on every page of the New Testament when in reality, such conduct is absent. I have had some of my brethren who advocate regular prayer to Jesus to affirm that since the Holy Spirit is deity, it is acceptable to pray directly to the Holy Spirit. I would like to see some of these same…(name of discussion list) members respond to Ted's question. I maintain that there is no authority, express command, approved example, or necessary inference, for prayer directed to the Holy Spirit.

Thank you in advance for your participation.

Don Martin to Ted Jarvis and the list:

I am currently preaching a series titled, "Prayer Directed to Jesus." I point out that the aim of the study is not to deprecate Jesus or the Holy Spirit, but to stress the teaching and pattern set forth in the scriptures of prayer addressed to the Father through the Son, with the Holy Spirit making intercession (Eph. 3: 14; Col. 3: 17, Rom. 8: 26). The lesson this coming Sunday night will be an exegesis of John 14, 13, 14, pertaining to the Godhead in the matter of prayer. While the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God and are active in the prayer of the Christian (theos, deity), each has an assigned role. This assigned role will continue until "the end" (I Cor. 15: 24-28). Until then, however, there is a distinction.

Ted wrote (too long to address in any detail):

"As an aside I would point out that this question of offering praise and adoration to the Holy Spirit is tied up with (at least) four other questions:

(1) Can one sing a prayer?

(2) Can one address in prayer or song any Personality of the Deity other than the Father?

(3) If one addresses any Personality of the Deity other than by song or prayer, will that Personality
regard and respond to that address?

(4) If one expresses a desire with respect to one Personality of the Deity in some form other than a prayer (e.g., 1Thess 3:11-13; 2Thess 2:16), does that Personality take note of and respond to that expression?....."

Don comments:

First, thank you, Ted, for your efforts to spark a discussion on prayer to the Holy Spirit. I think some of the problem relative to what we may to regarding the Godhead stems from how we define prayer. Some call the blind men asking Jesus to heal them prayer (Matt. 20: 30ff.). To the other extreme, some say there must not be any reference in the form of praise to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit.

Ted's question number one is good and thought provoking. Rather than going through the "Sacred Selections for the Church" hymnal, as I started doing in writing this post, suffice me to say that I believe one can utter what constitutes a prayer via a song. However, I do not believe every song that specifically mentions the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit in the assignment of praise, request for help, etc. is necessarily a prayer. What is the criteria to determine such? I expect all will never agree regarding the answer to this question. Perhaps someone with more opportunity than I presently have would like to provide some examples for discussion.

Don Martin to the list:

Steven Hughs and I seldom disagree on any Bible subject. However, on the subject of prayer to Jesus, we do disagree. Steven published to… this morning a well written track that he has written in which in argues for prayer to Jesus (I agree with about all except his conclusions). Steven has said heretofore on… that the Christian must pray to Jesus on occasion.

Hear Steven:

"...I had come to the conclusion of the propriety and sometimes the necessity of "praying to Jesus." When I say "the necessity" of praying to Jesus I have reference to the fact that one may wound the conscience of a weak brother and in so doing, my "sin against Christ" according to the inspired apostle Paul's statement in (1 Corinthians 8:12). My question to Bryan and others who oppose "talking, praying, or singing to Christ" is, when you "sin against Christ" how do you receive His forgiveness? Must one ask the Father to forgive one of sinning against His Son? Or, must one repent and ask Christ Himself to forgive him? I believe the latter to be the proper answer. If I sin against a brother in Christ I must repent and ask His forgiveness as well as the Father's. It isn't sufficient to ask God to forgive me until and unless I have made things right with my brother (See Matthew 5:23-24; 1 Peter 3:12)."

Don comments:

It is possible to also sin against the Holy Spirit, but are we obligated to pray directly to the Spirit in such cases (Heb. 10: 25ff.)? Steven had said that he does not pray to the Holy Spirit. Steven thinks, no doubt, that I am extreme because I advocate prayer to the Father through Jesus or with Jesus being the advocate and mediator (Eph. 3: 14; I Jn. 2: 1). Those who advocate prayer to the Holy Spirit also view me as extreme because I do not concur with their teaching. The scriptures present the Spirit as an intercession in prayer, not the one addressed (Rom. 8: 26). Many at large simply say, "What does it matter regarding prayer to the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Mary, or a departed saint, anyway?" Beloved, the thing that matters is that the scriptures present teaching and a pattern for prayer (Rom. 1: 8, 7: 25, Eph. 5: 20, Col. 3: 17, I Jn. 2: 1, Rom. 8: 26).

My good brother Steven believes he has found some exceptions, at least, regarding prayer to Jesus. I do not agree that these examples constitute universal examples for prayer to Jesus today. In my just published material to Bible Truths, "Directing Prayer to Jesus," I deal with the examples, arguments, and claimed express teaching authorizing prayer to Jesus (as we commonly think of prayer).

I can say "amen" to just about any post my friend Steven has, but not the posts on prayer to Jesus. I do, though, appreciate Steven's good manner and cordiality in differing with me on this subject.

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

Steven and the list, I bid you a good day. Steven, may I pose a couple questions for you to answer regarding prayer to Jesus, a subject about which you have no shyness?

1). First, can one be a faithful Christian and regularly direct prayer to the Holy Spirit?

2). Can one be a faithful Christian and not direct prayer to Jesus?

Steven, I need to know the answers to the above, especially number two. You see, I do not teach Christians to regularly pray to Jesus. If I am wrong and Christians are to pray to Jesus, I am also failing to teach others the whole truth. Would failing to teach prayer to Jesus be comparable to failing to teach Christians to give, regularly assemble and partake of the Lord's Supper, and to live godly lives? Please do not be concerned about hurting my feelings. If you count me as wrong, just say so in a few words.

Thank you in advance for your answers and comments.

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

Steven, first, thank you for the responsive posts. Steven and the list, I have found through the years that the praying to the Spirit (which you do not advocate) and to Jesus is basically an inferentially supported position. As we know, there are basically two kinds of inferences, the necessary and the unnecessary. Steven, you wondered why I did not refer to your track: I told you why. The reason was that I agreed with your biblical material, but I did not agree with your conclusions, which were based on unnecessary inferences. I could similarly reason: The Holy Spirit is deity, He provided the word, and he intercedes in the prayers of Christian; hence, I am to pray to him. My facts are correct, but my conclusion is forced and unsupported. Case in point:

Steven wrote:

1) Acts 1:24-25. I understand the prayer is directed to the Lord Jesus Christ because (a) they were in the process of selecting someone to take the office of Judas Iscariot and (b) Acts 1:2 clearly states that these 12, including Judas Iscariot, were chosen by Jesus.

Don comments:

I know of absolutely no way one can prove beyond all doubt that kurios (Lord, the one addressed in the prayer) in Acts 1: 24, 25 is specifically and peculiarly Jesus AND if so, Christians are to regularly address Jesus in prayer. Yet, Steven, this is your argument. Your argument is thus based on an unestablished conclusion. When each argument advanced in support of the teaching of regular prayer addressed to Jesus is examined, it falls into precisely the same category. Remember that even if one can in a given instance establish a particular case of prayer to Jesus, one must also prove that such an instance is intended to constitute a universal example of prayer to Jesus. If one could so establish this, how then does the Christian divide prayer and how often should he address Jesus as opposed to the Father? Does he end prayer to Jesus in "Jesus' name?" In the case of prayer directed to Jesus, does Jesus act as advocate and since it is he addressed, to whom does he act as advocate?

Steven continues:

Don Martin suggested that since sin against the Holy Spirit is mentioned and since I used the fact that one may "sin against Christ" and need to ask His forgiveness that this also would require prayers to the Holy Spirit. Don, that doesn't follow. First of all, there are no examples of prayers offered to the Holy Spirit. Second of all, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was a paritcular sin for which there was no forgiveness. To have witnessed a miracle and then to attribute the power by which it was performed to the devil could not be forgiven. Therefore your conclusion is misplaced and in error. The closest to this sin one could come today would be to read about the miracles and say the devil did them. Even so, if one spoke agains the word of God and later was convinced of his error, said person could repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the remission of sins into the only body. I know of no one who would refuse him. Nuff said.

Don answers:

Steven, in my post I did not refer to the "sin against the Holy Spirit" mentioned in Matthew 12: 22-32 but to the sinning against the Spirit in Hebrews 10: 29. Indeed, to do "despite to the Spirit of grace" is to sin against him (Heb. 10: 29). Therefore, your spent energies regarding Matthew 12 were misdirected. When one flagrantly rejects the Spirit and all that He has done in casting aside His provisions, one does sin against the Spirit. Steven, based on your rationale that one must pray to Jesus when one sins against Jesus, it would necessarily follow that when one similarly sins against the Spirit, one must pray to the Spirit.

Just about all with whom I have dealt in the past who maintain prayer to Jesus have begun by arguing no prayer to the Spirit, but have been forced to change their position and contend also for prayer to the Spirit. Steven, they have employed many of the same arguments as you are now using to advocate prayer to Jesus.

Steven wrote:

First of all, there are no examples of prayers offered to the Holy Spirit.

Don reflects:

I agree! However, I also suggest that there are no examples of prayer to Jesus that constitute normal, regular, and universal prayer to Jesus. God has provided specific teaching and a pattern for prayer and that practice for Christians is, "I bow my knees to the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph. 3: 14). Prayer is to the Father, through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit offering intercession (Rom. 1: 8, 7: 25, Eph. 5: 20, Col. 3: 17, I Jn. 2: 1, Rom. 8: 26).

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

Prayer is very important (I Thes. 5: 17). Moreover, the scriptures emphatically teach the efficacy of prayer (Phili. 4: 6, 7). The eight Greek words (four verbs and four nouns) translated pray/prayer provide definitional insight as to prayer. The scriptures also teach us that the Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are all involved in the prayers of Christians today. The scriptures are not silent as to this involvement and the role of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the matter of prayer. The stated role of each is: The Father is the one addressed, the Son acts as advocate (prayer is through Jesus), and the Spirit intercedes (Rom. 1: 8, 7: 25, Eph. 5: 20, Col. 3: 17, I Jn. 2: 1, Rom. 8: 26).

I asked Steven the following question and Steven kindly responded:

2). Can one be a faithful Christian and not direct prayer to Jesus?

Don said: Steven, I need to know the answers to the above, especially number two. You see, I do not teach Christians to regularly pray to Jesus. If I am wrong and Christians are to pray to Jesus, I am also failing to teach others the whole truth. Would failing to teach prayer to Jesus be comparable to failing to teach Christians to give, regularly assemble and partake of the Lord's Supper, and to live godly lives? Please do not be concerned about hurting my feelings. If you count me as wrong, just say so in a few words.

Steven's response to question number 2 and the paragraph below the question:

Don I have proved that praying to Christ is scriptural. Now answer your own question. May one please the Lord Jesus and never pray to Him? When we partake of the Lord's supper we are to commune with Christ (1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30). Must Christ only hear us thank His Father and ours for what His Son did for us and never hear us say thank you Jesus personally? Is this truly communion with Christ when He is such an abstract figure to the Christian? You give me an answer.

Don comments:

Steven and the list, Jesus is very dear, real, and special to me. I have based my life on Him and I have lived for him since I was 19. Jesus is not abstract to me, but I have never regularly directed prayer to Jesus. I have not done this, even through I was brought up in a denomination that prayed to Jesus, because I can not find supportive teaching for universal and regular prayer to Jesus on the part of Christians today. Besides, as I have asked, If one could so establish this, how then does the Christian divide prayer and how often should he address Jesus as opposed to the Father? Does he end prayer to Jesus in "Jesus' name?" In the case of prayer directed to Jesus, does Jesus act as advocate and since it is he addressed, to whom does he act as advocate?

Steven, you asked: "May one please the Lord Jesus and never pray to Him?" And, "Christ is our advocate with the Father. May one not address one's advocate (lawyer) and make request of Him to take to the Father (1 John 2:1-2)? Is it not possible that as our mediator we must go through Christ to the Father? How would you suggest that we do this (1 Timothy 2:5)? You tell us please. I fear that perhaps many have never had a close "personal" relationship with Christ that they could and would have if indeed we frequently "had a talk with Jesus" like we have sung about over the years."

Steven, the Christian in a sense also seeks to please the Holy Spirit (cp. Heb. 10: 29). Does this mean that the Christian must pray to the Spirit? The Spirit also has a similar role to that of Jesus in intercession; must we, therefore, pray to the Spirit (Rom. 8: 26)? Steven, your arguments prove too much! Both Jesus and the Spirit know the prayers of the Christian. They both, then, act in their respective roles (I Tim. 2: 5; Rom. 8: 26). There is no necessitated direct prayer involved in the matter of the Spirit and Jesus. Again, Steven, my friend, such argumentation is forced and the conclusions unnecessary.

Steven posed the following:

What does it mean when Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (Philippians 4:13)? Don, tell us please. Too, what was the meaning in 2 Corinthians when Paul prayed to Jesus three times for the removal of his thorn in the flesh when his answer from Jesus was "My strength is sufficient....?" (2 Corinthians 12:9) You tell me to whom he was praying?

Don answers:

Steven, the Spirit also empowers the Christian (Rom. 15: 13). Does it follow, then, that Christians must pray directly to the Holy Spirit? Steven, if I were caught up to paradise and had an opportunity to converse with Jesus, I would do so (I am not advocating such). This is what Paul did, the circumstance that you are using to contend for regular and universal prayer to Jesus on the part of Christians today (2 Cor. 12: 9).

Steven said:

Don you have not touched top, side, nor bottom of my arguments in the lesson I posted about "Prayer to Jesus." I wonder if your questions are genuinely seeking information and biblical answers or are you trying to set the stage to "catch me in my words?" I pray the former and not the latter is true.

Don closes this post:

Steven, as I mentioned, I did not take the space of endless posts to address your track because I basically agree with it: except for the conclusions that I believe to be unwarranted and unnecessary. In view of what is expressly taught, I also consider the conclusions as conflicting with what is taught. Please do not question my motives: my motives are to examine the teaching of prayer to Jesus, as advocated by you. Am I trying to "catch you in your words?" I am not sure what you mean, but if you mean am I trying to test your teaching, you had better know it. Steven, I appreciate the tone of your posts and your time.

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

Again, Steven and the list, I bid all a good day and a profitable weekend. Steven, thank you so much for your time and ability. While I differ with you on the matter of prayer to Jesus, I do appreciate your abilities and general stands for the truth!

Steven wrote:

When we partake of the Lord's supper we are to commune with Christ (1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30). Must Christ only hear us thank His Father and ours for what His Son did for us and never hear us say thank you Jesus personally? Is this truly communion with Christ when He is such an abstract figure to the Christian? You give me an answer.

Don answers and comments:

I desire to always differ and discuss these differences with the most capable disputants whom I can find. I have looked forward to a good exchange with Steven Hughs on the prayer to Jesus issue for sometime.

I have partaken of the Lord's Supper approximately 2, 000 times. I vividly recall the first time that I partook: I was 19, had just been baptized that Sunday, and I had to fight back the tears as I partook of the emblems of Jesus' precious body and blood. I had been a sinner, tough and rebellious and I had shamed the Lord. I had given up all, my friends, status in the world, the approval of my mother, and the girl to whom I was engaged to become a Christian. The Lord's Supper meant so much to me and I never looked back, not to this day. Yet, I did not then and do not now regularly pray to Jesus. Steven, have I all this time been taking of the Lord's Supper in vain?

I do not believe that out of the 2, 000 observances that I have failed to "do this in remembrance of me" (I Cor. 11: 24ff.). I have each time attempted to concentrate back on Jesus' life, suffering, and death. "The fact that he, the sinless Son of God, died for me!" what a thought and I have always viewed myself to be unworthy to partake. In partaking of the bread and the cup, I have shown "the Lord's death till he come" (I Cor. 11: 26). Yet, Steven, not once have I offered a direct prayer to Jesus. I have not because I see no teaching about direct prayer to Jesus in the texts providing instruction as to how to partake of his body and blood. Steven, have I missed some teaching and, therefore, been unacceptably partaking of Jesus' body and blood all these years?

Steven and the list, let us stop and apply the above. If Christians do not personally and directly pray to Jesus during the Lord's Supper, does this mean that Jesus is "an abstract figure" to them? Steven, you have inferentially reasoned and concluded that the Christian must directly pray to Jesus during the Lord's Supper: such is not expressly taught. I submit that your inferences are unnecessary. Furthermore, I submit that your inferences are not only unnecessary but that they are opposed to what is taught about prayer: God has provided specific teaching and a pattern for prayer and that practice for Christians is, "I bow my knees to the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph. 3: 14). Prayer is to the Father, through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit offering intercession (Rom. 1: 8, 7: 25, Eph. 5: 20, Col. 3: 17, I Jn. 2: 1, Rom. 8: 26).

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

My friend Steven has made one more good reply post. My present intention is to answer Steven's post in my alloted three posts and conclude my part in the discussion on prayer to Jesus.

Steven wrote:

When I charge those who do not "thank Jesus" when they are assembled "on the Lord's day, around the Lord's (Jesus') table to commune with our Lord Jesus Christ in partaking of the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine in remembrance of Jesus' death until He comes," of having an abstract view of the Messiah, I know of no other way to express myself on this matter. Who in this world can possibly consider it "sinful" to say "thank you Jesus?" Evidently if such is wrong, it is sinful (1 John 3:4). Don, let me ask you - Is it sinful for me to say "thank you Jesus" as I commune with Him around His table on His day? I believe from what you have said you just possibly may answer with a resounding "YES."

Don responds:

Steven is doing what he is supposed to do, he is applying the heat and testing my arguments. Steven has said that those who do not directly pray to Jesus during the Lord's Supper "have an abstract view of the Messiah." I have never prayed directly to Jesus during the Lord's Supper; hence, according to Steven, I "have an abstract view of Jesus." Steven now wants to know if I believe it is a sin to regularly and directly pray to Jesus. I would answer this question the same way Steven has answered regarding prayer to the Holy Spirit.

Steven wrote in answer to my below question:

(1). Can one sin against the Holy Spirit and, in the event that one can, must one also pray to the Holy Spirit? "Answer: No!" (Notice the exclamation mark, Steven is emphatic.)

A. Also, Steven, if you believe one can sin against the Holy Spirit, do you believe it is "NECESSARY" to pray directly to the Holy Spirit as you believe it is "NECESSARY" to pray directly to Jesus? Steven again emphatically answered, "No!"

Listen to Steven's good explanation has to why he said prayer should not directly be offered to the Holy Spirit:

"If there was a case in Scripture where disciples did pray to the Holy Spirit I would accept that and teach that we may. In the absence of such my answer is No!"

Don reflects:

I can answer thus regarding prayer to Jesus: "If there were a case in Scripture that illustrates universal and regular practiced prayer directly to Jesus, I would accept that and teach that we may. In the absence of such, my answer is, "No!" Thanks for the help, Steven. I cannot teach or practice prayer to Jesus as being discussed because I have no teaching to do so. Again, if one could so establish this, how then does the Christian divide prayer and how often should he address Jesus as opposed to the Father? Does he end prayer to Jesus in "Jesus' name?" In the case of prayer directed to Jesus, does Jesus act as advocate and since it is he addressed, to whom does he act as advocate, mediator, and intercessor? I, therefore, place such prayers to Jesus in precisely the same circumstance as prayer to the Spirit.

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

Steven asked:

Don, we all know that "thousands of Christians" that do not practice something doesn't constitute biblical authority for the omission. Thousands of religious folks do not believe baptism and membership in Christ's church are essential. Are we to give up teaching what the bible clearly teaches on said subjects?

Don answers:

Steven, my only point, as I stated, was to show the inevitable consequences of your position. I am not praying to Jesus because I simply am not taught to so do; therefore, I do not know how. According to you, "thousands and I have an abstract view of Jesus." Jesus taught the fact and how we are to pray to the Father (cp. Matt. 6: 9-15).

Steven wrote:

Your appeal to the miraculous events surrounding those prayers to Jesus which I cited cut no ice whatsoever. If so, then we must rule out just about every case of conversion in the Acts of the apostles since miraculous events accompanied them Example: Pentecost, Saul of Tarsus, the Philippian jailer, etc., etc., etc. See Don? "That which proves too much, proves nothing."

Don answers:

Again, Steven is doing a good job. The presence of the miraculous in such texts as Acts 2 (tongues) does not preclude the universal applicability of the answer to the question, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2: 36-38). However, the fact that Paul was "caught up to the third heaven," "heard words," and evidently literally conversed with Christ in paradise (all miraculous) does impact and influence the universality of what Paul did. I say Paul's example is not even what I consider to be "prayer to Jesus," as being discussed in the case of Christians today. Worded another way, the miraculous circumstances of the example of Paul, Stephen, etc. constitute the very essential act itself and shows these examples are not meant to be universally practiced or even considered model examples of prayer to Jesus. If Paul had written, "I bow my knees to the Son of our Father" as he did, "I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," then Steven would have a solid and invincible argument and example (cp. Eph. 3: 14). The very language of the exclamation of Ephesians 3: 14 indicates and presupposes a regular practice and the language itself shows prayer to the Father is unmistakably meant.

Don Martin to Steven Hughs and the list:

Don further observes:

Regarding Steven's statement on Romans 8: 26, I made the following comments:

Steven takes texts that involve all kinds of extra and miraculous activities that do not even, in my judgment constitute what we think of as prayer, cases that are exceptional, and then says that they are, "cases where there is no doubt that prayers were offered to Jesus," binding them on all Christians to the point that if direct prayer to Jesus is not practiced, Jesus is an abstract figure. Then Steven takes teaching that contains no exceptional matter and no attendant indication of any limitation, and rejects that, claiming that the intercession of the Spirit was First Century only.

Steven now writes:

Don, do you believe God the Father and God the Son must have God the Holy Spirit to tell them what the Christian is attempting to say to them? That is the conclusion of your argument about the Holy Spirit's intercession in Romans.

Don answers:

Steven, please allow me to apply a little heat: Romans 8: 36 says what it says and that is, the Spirit helps our infirmities...making groanings which cannot be uttered." I see no situational, contextual, or dispensational limitation anywhere. Do I claim to be able to totally explain all the intricacies and nuances of the Godhead: no. However, I do believe Romans 8: 26 and I stand opposed to any rejection of what the verse is patently teaching. Why does the Father need the Son to mediate, the Father already knows if he should grant the considered prayer? Yet, Jesus plays a similar role to the Holy Spirit, making mediation and intercession (I Jn. 2: 1, I Tim. 2: 5).

My good brother Steven continued:

I see that you felt the need to appeal to the Greek documents in an attempt to make your case. Is it so that we do not have sufficiently clear translations in the English language on this matter? Must I know the Greek to refute what I believe to be error on your part?

Don responds:

Steven, I mentioned the Received Text (KJV) and the Wescott/Hort texts in referring to and attempting to answer a post by Jared Scalco. Notice again:

"Jared Scalco wrote:

John 14:13 - 14 apparently present something of a translation problem. The idea in verse 14 seems to be: I will do whatever you ask me in my name."

Don comments (excerpt from my article, "Directing Prayer to Jesus" found in Bible Truths):

...Out of all the examples and arguments used in an effort to justify prayer to Jesus, the most challenging of all is John 14: 13, 14. The verses read thus (I shall present the King James rendering, Received Text, and then a reading based on the Westcott/Hort text:

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it" (KJ). "And whatsoever ye ask in the name of me, this I will do, that may be glorified the Father in the Son. If anything ye ask me in the name of me, I will do" (Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, Nestle/Marshall, it will be observed that regardless of which Greek text is used, Jesus still says "I will do it;" albeit, the Westcott/Hort text which is used for most translations today makes Jesus' involvement plainer by saying, "If anything ye ask me.I will do").

Steven, the point I am making is that I do not think it matters which set of manuscripts is used, Jesus is the recipient of whatever is being discussed! You should have said "amen" to my post instead of now objecting to it.

Steven expressed the sentiment that not a few, I am afraid, have:

"If you can't prove it from the English you can't prove it from the Greek." If that isn't so, let me use your subjective argument, "Look at the thousands who cannot know God's will, who know nothing of the Greek!"

Don answers:

In an earlier post, I used a little elementary Greek when I wrote regarding the unity of the Godhead being taught in John 14: "To stress oneness, he then proclaimed, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" (vs. 18). Jesus is not saying that he and the Father were one being (vs. 10, 11). Jesus also shows the separateness of him and the Spirit when he says "another comforter" (allon parakleton, a comforter of the same sort as Jesus, but different entity wise, vs. 16)."

The Greek allos or allon (accusative case) means another, another of the same sort. Hence, this one little Greek word teaches the fact that Jesus and the Spirit are two separate entities, but also the fact that they are the same, the same sort (deity). Should I confess sin for having brought out this point (most translations do not make this clear and I could multiply such an example many times over)?

Steven concluded:

Finally Don, thanks for the compliment about my abilities to set forth the position I hold and about being a "model" even though I do not consider such to be the case. I hope you have a great day and that the Lord's (Jesus' day) will likewise be productive and acceptable to our Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father whom we serve.

Don's final comment:

Again, thank you, Steven, and all of you for following this exchange. I conclude by again saying: God has provided specific teaching and a pattern for prayer and that practice for Christians is, "I bow my knees to the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph. 3: 14). Prayer is to the Father, through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit offering intercession (Rom. 1: 8, 7: 25, Eph. 5: 20, Col. 3: 17, I Jn. 2: 1, Rom. 8: 26).

Don Martin to Ted Jarvis and the list:

Ted wrote:

What I say to any member of the Deity in my closet affects no one's salvation except my own, and we can sing and pray in assemblies in ways which are acceptable to everyone.

Don comments:

First, Ted, thank you for your contributions to the subject of praying/singing to members of the Godhead. I have an obligation to teach the truth on all subjects, including the role of the Godhead in prayer (Eph. 3: 14, Rom. 1: 8, I Jn. 2: 1, Rom. 8: 26). During the approaching 40 years that I have been attempting to preach, I have encountered many different attitudes and positions within the church regarding prayer to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus. I have known of some who would meet in their houses and sing special songs to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus. Of course, it was not long before they began doing other things, even "speaking in tongues."

I have taught on this subject and warned brethren also of the progressive tendencies of this issue (ex. tongue speaking and rank Pentecostalism). Some of the worse circumstances, though, that I have encountered involve brethren who push their praying to the Spirit and to Jesus on other brethren in the assembly. "We pray publicly to Jesus here and if you do not like it, you are welcome to leave!" It is especially this attitude that greatly disturbs me. As this movement gains impetus, I predict we shall see more with this very attitude, "We pray publicly to Jesus here and if you do not like it, you are welcome to leave!"

Hence, this issue of prayer to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus is not just always a private matter that does not directly involve others.

Don Martin to Ted Jarvis and the list:

Ted wrote:

4. In Don's words, "God has provided specific teaching and a pattern for prayer, and that practice for Christians is, 'I bow my knees to the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ' (Eph.3:14). Prayer is to the Father, through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit offering intercession (Rom.1: 8; 7: 25, Eph.5: 20, Col.3:17, I Jn.2:1, Rom.8: 26)."

4a. I have already covered this objection in my previous discussion of authority. There is no principle by which we are forbidden to pray to Jesus or the Spirit, and many principles which can be adduced to allow or to urge us to pray to these Personalities. Furthermore, this objection must explain why a prayer-song to Jesus or the Holy Spirit is allowed while a prayer is not. Is the nature of the Deity such that He knows how to process a prayer-song to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit but not a prayer?

Don comments:

I have said that prayer to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit stand or fall together. Emanating out of the prayer to Jesus/Spirit issue are such matters as singing to the Spirit/Jesus, etc.

Ted wrote:

7. Concerning the many examples of prayers and statements to Jesus found in scripture, Don says, "I also suggest that there are no examples of prayer to Jesus that constitute normal, regular, and universal prayer to Jesus."

7a. I am sure this statement must have made the eyes roll back in the heads of all the champions of command, example, and necessary inference! It is not enough to have several examples of prayers and wishes expressed to Jesus; by Don's standards, these are not "normal, regular and universal." We have ONE example of what is probably, but not explicitly said to be, the observance of the Lord's Supper on Sunday, and out of that one probable example we have created a law which says we must take the Lord's supper every Sunday and only on Sunday. We have many examples of prayers and expressions of need to Jesus, but none of these applies to us! I hope that Don is prepared to publish an appendix to the official command, example, and necessary inference handbook specifying the characteristics of NT examples which make them, "normal, regular and universal."

Don comments:

I have always taught "approved examples." I believe it to be careless and reckless to simply say that "we establish authority by examples." Ted, I still must beg to differ regarding Stephen and Paul constituting examples of prayer to Jesus, examples that are applicable to Christians today. If I literally saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father or was apparently caught up to paradise and saw Jesus and have him talk to him, I would talk to him (Acts 7; 2 Cor. 12). However, I do not think of these examples as approved examples for Christians regularly praying to Jesus today (praying to Jesus during each Lord's Supper is regular prayer to Jesus). As I have warned, this is where some have been encouraged to come up with claimed "miraculous activities and experiences." If Acts 7 and 2 Corinthians 12 can serve as binding examples today, how can we escape the matter of seeing and talking with Jesus? I again say that the presence of tongues in Acts 2 on the part of the apostles in no way discounts the example of what some were told to do to be saved (Acts 2: 37-42).

I plan on remaining silent and allow others to freely contribute to the questions you have raised in your three posts today regarding prayer and singing to Jesus and to the Spirit. Again, I always enjoy exchanging with you because of the obvious lack of any "inferiority complex" and "over sensitivity." Of course, this is not to say that I do not often differ with you, as you and the list are aware. I do think, though, it is much better to differ in a friendly environment than it a hostile one, as I believe you agree (we have agreed on something!).