The following exchange took place on an Internet discussion list made up of a number of preachers.  The exchange is not highly structured because of the nature of the list, but it should provide additional insight into the subject of God's grace and man's obedience pertaining to salvation (the names have been changed to allow concentration only on the teaching).  This exchange is of particular interest because it involves a member of the church of Christ.  "Jake" has not gone all the way to the point of accepting the total denominational view of salvation by grace only, but Jake is in the very process of arriving at the denominational stance.   Jake's view is, therefore, an example of false teaching in the evolutionary stage.   Some of the nuances are still subtle, yet present.  (Please be sure to read, "Three Views of Salvation.")

Don Martin to Jake and the list:

Jake wrote:

"We do good works because we have been saved, not in order to be saved.

Finally, Frank is exactly right in one of his previous posts. The value of my works in obtaining salvation for me is zero. The only works which contribute to my salvation are the works of Christ, because those are the only works which are flawless, as God's righteousness requires works to be."

Don replies:

Jake, you made a number of good, well articulated points in your above referenced post. I am aware that there is a great challenge when it comes to teaching on the subject of "works," even works God has ordained, in the matter of man's salvation. I am certainly faced with the same challenge.

Jake and the list, I have noticed that on occasion when teaching on God approved works under the heading of salvation, there are often many truths correctly set forth along with some expressions and statements that I view as inappropriate and incongruous to the over all teaching of the scriptures, such as the above.

Jake, may I ask you some simple questions for you to answer on the list? Keep in mind that I understand and freely admit that man does not, cannot, and will not merit his salvation (Rom. 4). I am also aware that Christ's system of salvation does not involve a marriage of salvation by flawless deeds and salvation by grace (Rom. 11: 6).

(1). Has God required certain works to be performed by man, without which man cannot be saved?

(2). Do these requisite works involve such acts as: belief, repentance, confession of Christ's deity, and water baptism for the remission of sins in order to become a Christian? Must the child of God regularly attend the local church of which he is a part, stand for the truth, and live a godly life?

(3). Is righteousness, in a good and saving sense, ever applied to man based on what that man is and does?

(4). When man appears before God in the Day of Judgment, what and whom will God see:
  A. Man only (his love and obedience).
  B. Man and Jesus (man's obedience and Jesus' death and atoning blood).
  C. Jesus' personal righteousness only.

Jake, the list and I shall await your answers.

Cordially,

Don Martin to Jake and the list:

Jake, first of all, thank you for responding to my questions. However, the format you selected is rather confusing to me and difficult for me to address (you addressed multiple people at the same time). I shall briefly comment:

My question two was: (2). Do these requisite works involve such acts as: belief, repentance, confession of Christ's deity, and water baptism for the remission of sins in order to become a Christian? Must the child of God regularly attend the local church of which he is a part, stand for the truth, and live a godly life?

To which Jake replied:

Again, I do not view the above as the issue. The issue is, does man have to perform God required works in order to be saved by grace, this is my contention. Works, I again add, that make up the process and action of appropriating, accepting, and accessing God's grace.

Jake comments relative to question five thus:

JAKE RESPONDS: Again, I am not sure that we actually disagree on this point, but I would have said it differently. The only atonement for sin is Jesus (1Jn 2:1-2), and the only reason that the sacrifice of Jesus is efficacious is because He kept the law sinlessly (Heb 10:5-10). Yes, man must do something to benefit from God's grace (Jas 2), but what he does is deeds of faith to accept the terms by which the free gift is offered. He is not saved by works done in obedience to law: "Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing law; rather, through law we become conscious of sin."

Don responds:

Again, the issue is not earned salvation by the sinless keeping of law. The issue is the essentiality of keeping God required works and benefiting from the advantageous grace of God that makes up for man's imperfect (not flawless) obedience.

Jake continued to ask relative to question five:

Don, do you not agree that if we cannot be sinless we cannot be saved by works done in obedience to law? Do you not agree that our only hope of salvation is faith, which is different from sinlessness?

Don answers:

Jake and the list, involved in such an exchange is the matter of wadding through word definition, semantical matters, and even situations of equivocation. Perhaps we are nearing the end and shall soon focus our discussion on the core issue. Jake, why not express the above as: "Our only hope is 'salvation by grace through faith'" (Eph. 2: 8, I Pet. 4: 11)? Man does not, will not, and cannot earn his salvation, but man is required to appropriate God's grace and this appropriation involves humbly obeying all God required works (Heb. 5: 8, 9). Since we will not flawlessly keep any of these commands, God has provided the means of obviation, his grace (Lk. 17: 10).

I shall respond to Jake's post number three in my next post. Again, I thank Jake for his patience and I thank you for you interest. I think we are doing some necessary fine tuning in these preliminary posts and will be able to shortly address the substantive issue.

Don Martin to Jake and the list:

This is my final post in response to Jake's review of my answers to his ten questions. I am very much enjoying the exchange. I have been feverishly working on a Bible time line to be published to Bible Truths and I view the exchange as a welcome change of subject. I also am enjoying it because I believe good will result from it.

Regarding question number six in which I mention that there is a sense in which man "saves himself" (Acts 2: 40 and that man participates in his salvation by "keeping himself in the love of God" (Jude 21), Jake responded:

JAKE INTERRUPTS: I agree, but I would interject that the way we keep ourselves in God's love and grace is through faith--through trusting God--not through works, because the only works that would be acceptable to God are sinless works.

Don comments:

Jake, may I kindly say that I believe our real differences are now surfacing. The kind of obedience (works) set forth in the New Testament are works concerning which God is very aware and determine if we are accepted or refused. Again, this is not to say that we merit salvation (Lk. 17: 10). However, man is simply not acceptable to God without implicit obedience to God's required works (Acts 2: 37-42). Saving faith itself is belief and trust in God that expresses itself in obedience. Without the obedience, there is no saving faith (Jas. 2: 14-26). I have often said that one does no harm to scripture to mentally substitute "obedience" for "faith" in verses mentioning saving faith. Faith itself is a work, a work of God (Jn. 6: 29).

Since question seven, my answer, and Jake's response are concise, I shall insert them:

QUESTION 7: Can obedience to one commandment within a law atone, partially or fully, for disobedience to another commandment in that law?

DON'S ANSWER: Jake, one cannot keep one law and disregard another law or God required work (Jas. 2: 10). This was true under the Law of Moses (a system that required sinless obedience for justification) and the law of Christ, the "perfect law of liberty" (Jas. 1: 25, cp. Jas. 2: 1-13).

JAKE RESPONDS: I admit to struggling with what James means by "the law of liberty." His quotation, you will note, is from the OT, but he treats these two commandments as though they apply to Christians. Don, do you not agree that, since obedience to one command cannot be substituted for obedience to another, whatever actions constitute the response of faith to the offered grace of God cannot be classed as works in the sense that Paul used the term?

Don responds:

Again, Jake, I remain confused. Paul addressed "works" in many contexts and nuances. Just because Paul taught that salvation by grace is not mixed with earned salvation by flawless law keeping (Rom. 11: 6), does not mean Paul was opposed to obeying God required works in the setting of grace (Phili. 2: 12, Heb. 11).

Regarding Jake's comments on my answer for question nine, I think we see more essential difference emerging:

JAKE RESPONDS: A couple of Don's statements are insufficiently precise for my (admittedly warped, HA!) taste. Don, does not Heb 5:8-9 concern the works of Jesus by which He became complete as a high priest and mediator, and not our works?

Don reflects:

Yes, Jake, the emphasis of Hebrews 5: 8, 9 is on Jesus, if this is your question. However, the verse says: "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (vs. 9). We must not stress man's obedience to the point of excluding Jesus. However, neither must we emphasize Jesus to the point of eliminating man's obedience.

Question ten, my answer, and Jake's review are also short:

QUESTION 10: Are works done in obedience to the law of God added to divine grace and human faith in order to qualify a person to be saved?

DON'S ANSWER: We do not read such language as "added to divine grace and human faith..." in the scriptures. God required works are simply man appropriating God's grace, whether it is the situation of the alien sinner or the child of God. This appropriation is done by faith (man's obedience to God required works, Eph. 2: 8-10, Jas. 2: 14-26).

JAKE RESPONDS: I agree with almost all of Don's answer. Don, is it not true that Paul says in Ephesians that we are saved by faith "unto" good works, not "because of" good works? Is it not true that the only thing he says about good works is that we are "not" saved by them!

Don answers:

Here is what Paul sequentially sets forth in the passage of Ephesians 2: 8-10: (1). Man is saved "by grace through faith." The grace is God's part; the faith is man's part. The faith under consideration is active, obedient faith that submits as best as one can to God's teaching and commands (Gal. 5: 6, I Jn. 2: 3-6). Man's salvation is not by works whereby man can boast. There is no opportunity for boasting in humbly keeping God's commands out of love, they are not of a nature to lend themselves to such boasting (I Jn. 5: 3, Eph. 2: 9). Next, Paul wrote, "...created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (vs. 10). The expression "created...unto good works... (ktisthentes... epi ergois agathois) indicates the very purpose for being created in Christ, "for good works" (ASV, cp. 2 Cor. 5: 17). The wording, "...that we should walk in them" (ina en autois pheriphatesomen) graphically teaches that the life of the Christian is to be that of good works, continued good works.

Since belief itself is a "work of God," the whole experience of being a Christian, from beginning to end, is a matter of "good works." Jake, may I gently say that a number of your statements seem to be designed to play down God required works. Let me close by again affirming: Man does not earn his salvation, were it not for the grace of God, the most obedience would be lost!" (Lk. 17: 10.) However, regardless of the abundance of God's grace, without man's obedience to God required works, God's grace is in vain, as far as man is concerned (2 Cor. 6: 1).

Jake, I shall now provide you with an opportunity to reply to my posts. After your reply, I shall ask you some questions. Thank you again for your commendable behavior.


Jake replies to my last post and my final response to his comments on my answers:

Don Martin to Jake and the list:

Jake has now had his final say regarding the answers I provided to his ten questions relative to salvation, grace, and man's obedience. I shall herein provide my final brief comment on Jake's below post. Jake mentioned that he will be out of town for a few days. I will shortly provide a couple questions (probably two only at first) for Jake to answer. Here is what Jake said and my comments (November 14, 2001, digest 2681, I shall address only the areas in which Jake states a disagreement):

"...I think it's just one issue, and here it is. Don and I agree that the works the Christian does in obedience to the law of God do make a contribution to salvation, but we disagree what that contribution is.

I believe the contribution these works make to salvation is that they demonstrate that the person doing them is maintaining his commitment of faith to Jesus, and that it is entirely because of that faith, and not at all because of the works he does by that faith, that the person will be saved. I believe that, at some point, a person who deviates from keeping the law of God demonstrates that he is no longer living by faith, and that at that point he has "fallen from grace." I will admit that I cannot always specify a priori what this point is, though it is conclusively demonstrated by some patterns of misconduct.

I don't want to be in the position of putting bits into Don's computer, but I will say--and I welcome Don's correction on this point--that it appears he believes that works done by the Christian in keeping the laws of God, even though not sinless, do make some contribution to one's salvation that is different from or in addition to their indication that the person possesses faith; that is, such works are in some way added to the grace of God in order to save the redeemed Christian.

I again salute Don for his conduct in this discussion."

Don comments:

Thus far, so much of our exchange remains semantical, I believe. It appears Jake takes issue with such language as, "God's grace coupled with man's obedience, equals man's salvation." I have offered the exegesis of Ephesians 2: 8 that grace is God's essential part and "faith" is man's necessary part. The point with which Jake disagrees is when I say the "faith" under consideration is man's obedience. In the above quoted post, Jake seeks to distinguish between "obedience" and "faith." I have suggested that in verses that mention saving faith, you can visualize "obedience" without doing any serious harm to the verse.

I understand that faith (Pistis) involves belief in God that embraces not simply the intellect but trust and reliance. However, this considered faith always (no exception) is operative and obedient. It seems Jake wants faith to essentially involve belief, trust, and reliance, but he wants obedience to God's commands separate and apart (see Jas. 2: 14-26, Gal. 5: 6, Heb. 5: 8, 9, chapter 11). Herein we do differ. James and Paul are really saying the same thing: man is justified by faith (Rom. 5: 1, Jas. 2: 14-26).

I believe Jake has done a good job in his final analysis and I agree with his assessment. I trust the questions that I ask of him will be successful in focusing on the basic and consequential difference Jake and I have regarding saving faith (man's part in his salvation). Let me also say that I believe Jake is making some good "potential" points. I say this with regard to any belief that "saving obedience" (faith) is simply a mechanical, superficial, and robotic performance. I believe there are those in the church whose "obedience" is simply a performance and not that emanating and involved in their implicit faith in God (Heb. 11: 1, 2).

I again want to thank Jake for his work and you for reading this exchange.


Cordially,
Don Martin

Don Martin to Jake and the list:

One of the paramount challenges of one engaged in an exchange is that of attempting to analyze the basic concepts involved in the discussion. Too much time is often spent regarding peripheral issues; hence, a symptomatic discussion takes place. My basic concept of salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2: 8) is this:

Since man cannot earn his salvation, God has provided essential grace (Tit. 2: 11). This grace is universal, but man must do something to appropriate God's grace (Tit. 2: 11-14). However, the appropriation (accepting) cannot be such as would itself involve "works whereby we can boast" (Eph. 2: 9). It is evident that there are "works" essentially involved in man's salvation by grace. Man must believe, all agree, and belief itself is a "work of God" (Jn. 6: 29). Belief is said to be a work, in one sense, because man must allow the word (must consider and study it) to develop faith within him (Jn. 20: 30, 31, Rom. 10: 17). This necessary faith is not simply mentally accenting to God's existence, but it always manifests itself in implicit obedience to the commands of God (Jas. 2: 14-26). Belief, repentance, confession, and baptism are all necessary to man's salvation by grace (Jn. 8: 24; Acts 17: 30; Rom. 10: 9, 10; Acts 2: 38). These acts are all works, but not the type of action that meritoriously reflect on the doer (many Baptist argue that faith is miraculously supplied to man; hence, not a work). These acts simply constitute the accepting and appropriation of God's saving grace. They are analogous to the drowning man reaching out and accepting the life line provided to him that will pull him to safety. "Look what I did, I was drowning and I saved myself..." is unthinkable. The emphasis is on the one who provided the rope, if you please, that saved the helpless drowning man. Thus it is spiritually. However, to emphasize that even these works (the appropriation of grace) are not in the spot light relative to man's salvation, Paul said "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..." (Tit. 3: 5, it is interesting that Paul immediately states salvation is by baptism).

Jake's differing view of salvation by grace through faith is as follows: Man is saved by grace on God's part and faith is man's part. Works of any kind (even God required works) are not essentially and inherently involved and in place in the matter of faith. Man does, though, have to have works or be obedient, but this obedience is separate and apart from his faith. "We do good works because we have been saved, not in order to be saved," Jake has stated. Hence, Jake has segregated and separated saving faith and obedience or God required works. Jake believes that to have works in place in man's saving faith is to have man saved by works and not by grace. The analogous reaching out for the life line would, then, be simply the man having faith apart from any kind of work.

Based on what I trust and believe is an accurate assessment of Jake's basic concept of salvation by grace through faith, I pose my first two questions for Jake to answer:

1. Is not my assessment of your basic concept of salvation by grace through faith basically accurate (please simply answer "yes" if possible)?

2. How do you define saving faith, what exactly is it and can a person be saved without doing God required works?

Cordially,
Don Martin

Jake's answers to my first two questions:

1. Is not my assessment of your basic concept of salvation by grace through faith basically accurate (please simply answer "yes" if possible)?

I do not suspect Don of trying to trap me, and perhaps what I am about to say is just "yes" in other words. But I would describe my position in this way: Saving faith is inseparable from the works which it motivates a person to do, but it is the faith, not the works, which saves.

Don's second question:

2. How do you define saving faith, what exactly is it and can a person be saved without doing God required works?

Saving faith is the acceptance of God's unmerited favor ("grace") by which a person who has sinned is counted by God as though he had not sinned. Saving faith involves (1) completion of the terms of the covenant ("FRCB"); (2) the continuing effort to live in as close a conformity to the expressed will of God as it is possible for a person to do; and, (3) growth. The works done in an attempt to conform one's life to the pattern of Jesus are necessary because saving faith is inseparable from the works it motivates a person to do, but because the works which a saving faith motivates will never be perfect the works in themselves do not save.

Don Martin to Jake (third and fourth questions):

Jake has graciously complied with my request to answer each question that I submit to him and in just as few words as possible. Regarding question one, I submitted a lead in that described what I thought Jake's concept of salvation by grace through faith is. The thrust of my proposed concept held by Jake was faith saves but faith and works are different, works do not save, it is the faith that saves. Here Jake:

"I do not suspect Don of trying to trap me, and perhaps what I am about to say is just "yes" in other words. But I would describe my position in this way: Saving faith is inseparable from the works which it motivates a person to do, but it is the faith, not the works, which saves."

Don replies:

I plan on commenting more on the first two answers, but at this stage I want to establish a little more frame of reference. Therefore, I submit the lead in for my questions number three and four:

Peter applicably and fearlessly introduced the gospel on the Day of Pentecost by charging those present with crucifying Jesus, whom Peter has proved was "Lord and Christ" (Acts 2: 36, 23). Peter has urged belief and the respondents indicate the presence of belief when they asked, "men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2: 37). While the question contains an ellipsis, the full question of "what must we do to be saved?" is understood. To this question of what to do to be saved, Peter responded by answering, "repent, and be baptized..." (vs. 38). Appreciate the fact, again, that these people inquiring about salvation already possess motivating faith (vs. 37); hence, Peter does not specifically answer: "believe...." Here are my third and fourth questions, Jake:

3. Were these people who possessed "faith" already technically saved and what is the meaning of, "Save yourselves" in verse 40?

4. Did these people have "remission of sins" (salvation) at the point of believing in God's grace or when they were baptized (a God required work)?

Jake, thank you again for you patience and your participation in this exchange. For those of you who are following this discussion, Jake and I have limited "works" to God required works or obedience to the commands of God.

Jake to Don Martin and the list:

Don has submitted his third and fourth questions. Here are my responses to those questions.

Don's third question:

3. Were these people who possessed "faith" already technically saved and what is the meaning of, "Save yourselves" in verse 40?

No, they were not saved, technically or in any other sense that I can discern (I will not try to predict what decision God might have made "...if so-and-so had happened..."). Peter's admonition "save yourselves" refers, I believe, both to their immediate opportunity to respond to the offer of the provision of grace by God and to the longer-term opportunity to be freed from the bondage of sin by accepting Jesus as their lord.

Don's fourth question:

4. Did these people have "remission of sins" (salvation) at the point of believing in God's grace or when they were baptized (a God required work)?

They were baptized "unto" the remission of sins; therefore, they had remission of sins when they came up from the water of baptism. It was only when their faith was "made complete" by baptism that any human being could say accurately that they had a saving faith.

By the way, as I intimated in an earlier communication, I would make a distinction between the act of submission to baptism and any works done in response to the law of God.

Thanks to Don for his good questions and for his continued good spirit in this exchange.

Don Martin to Jake and the list (first of three answering posts):

Jake, thank you for promptly responding to my questions three and four. However, I am now utterly confused. I started this exchange with the primary premise that man is saved by God's grace coupled with man's obedience to the commands of God. This, I injected, is my understanding of "salvation by grace through faith" (Eph. 2: 8). I have stated that "God required works" are an essential part (not separate from) saving faith and do not constitute earned salvation. I have explained that such God required works (I have named some) are simply man's accepting and appropriating God's grace. Hence, man must humbly and obediently effect such works in order to be saved. I have shared with you and the list that faith itself is "the work of God" (Jn. 6: 29).

Jake, you have said, "We do good works because we have been saved, not in order to be saved." You have said this in the climate of God required works. You have said that salvation by grace through faith is when man accepts the fact that God has supplied his grace and that man's salvation is by this grace. You have repeatedly stated that faith and works are different, albeit inseparable and that man is saved at the point of faith. Again, all of this has been said in the context of "God required works." In the matter of man's obedience and salvation, you have referred to Christ's obedience.

Jake wrote:

"We do good works because we have been saved, not in order to be saved.

Finally, Frank is exactly right in one of his previous posts. The value of my works in obtaining salvation for me is zero. The only works which contribute to my salvation are the works of Christ, because those are the only works which are flawless, as God's righteousness requires works to be."

Jake, while you have courteously denied it, I believe you are very close to teaching the doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Calvinists are heard saying, "man is saved at the point of faith but the saved will do good works because they are saved, but never in order to be saved...the only works that count in the matter of man's salvation are the works of Jesus, etc."

Don Martin to Jake and the list (second of three answering posts):